QA回答：中國的殲-20與美國的F-35相比如何？

Michael X
The concept behind them are every different. Let me talk about the logic behind the F-35 first. The US military was obsessed with technical and numerical advantage over their opponents. Engaging a peer competitor and gambling on the result was never part of their plan. Therefore, their plan was using the F-35 taking down all the 4th gen fighters and then use their numerical advantage against a few 5th gen left. The logic behind the F-35 program was they could produce a lot of them relatively cheap and fast, and that goal was achieved mostly.
它們的設(shè)計理念截然不同。讓我先談?wù)凢-35背后的邏輯。美軍癡迷于對對手的技術(shù)和數(shù)量優(yōu)勢。與同級別對手交戰(zhàn)并賭上勝負從來不是他們計劃的一部分。因此,他們的計劃是用F-35消滅所有第四代戰(zhàn)機,然后利用數(shù)量優(yōu)勢對付剩下的少量五代機。F-35項目的邏輯在于能夠以相對低廉的成本快速大量生產(chǎn),這個目標(biāo)基本實現(xiàn)了。

How do you even take down a 5th gen? What are their weaknesses? All the 5th gen are very stealth in the front, not so much in other angles. If a 5th gen suddenly found enemy fighter jets approaching in its 6 oclock position, it's over. In order to checkmate the F-35, it will have to out maneuver it in a much larger radius(bvr), which is going to require much higher speed and range. Taking that concept, you get the J-20.
如何擊落五代機?它們的弱點是什么?所有五代機正面隱身性能很好,但其他角度就沒那么強。如果一架五代機突然發(fā)現(xiàn)敵機從6點鐘方向接近,那就完了。為了將死F-35,必須在更大半徑范圍內(nèi)(bvr)超越它的機動性,這需要更高的速度和航程?；谶@個概念,就有了殲-20。

For the 6th gen, every player is going to emphasize the important of much larger combat radius, higher speed, all angle stealth, larger internal weapons bay, and more computing power. Canards are bad for stealth, but not when they are on the American fighter jet.
對于第六代戰(zhàn)機,每個參與者都會強調(diào)更大的作戰(zhàn)半徑、更高的速度、全向隱身、更大的內(nèi)置彈艙和更強的計算能力。鴨翼對隱身不利,除非是在美國戰(zhàn)機上。

PS: Stop commenting the network centric warfare, the PLAAF took it more seriously than the Americans who invented it.
PS:別再評論網(wǎng)絡(luò)中心戰(zhàn)了,解放軍空軍比發(fā)明它的美國人更重視這個概念。


Bill Chen
The f-35 will NOT be able to establish air superiority against the j-20.
The f-35 is not a "I can hit you where you can't hit back" platform against the j-20.
The j-20, in tandem with ground and air assets providing EW and sensor network coverage, is a formidable proposition to penetrate and challenge, let alone destroy.
But of course, the Anglophone will not believe the status quo until the shooting concludes.
I will end here.
F-35無法對殲-20建立空中優(yōu)勢。
F-35并非對抗殲-20時"我能打到你而你還不了手"的平臺。
殲-20與提供電子戰(zhàn)和傳感器網(wǎng)絡(luò)覆蓋的地面及空中資產(chǎn)協(xié)同作戰(zhàn)時,是極難穿透和挑戰(zhàn)的存在,更別說摧毀了。
當(dāng)然,英語國家的人不到開戰(zhàn)那一刻是不會相信現(xiàn)狀的。
我就說到這里。


Clifford Nelson
From what I have heard, and can see, the J-20 and the F-35 are designed for different missions. This seems to be the conclusion of Millenium 7. Often see these pictures of the F-35.
據(jù)我所知所見,殲-20和F-35是為不同任務(wù)設(shè)計的。這似乎是Millenium 7的結(jié)論。經(jīng)常看到F-35的這些照片。

The F-35 is supposed to replace everything, but the funny thing is that the design is heavily biased towards steatlh. That means that other aspects of plane performance were compromised to improve stealth, and cost trade-offs would have increased cost, including costs for maintenance. To put any external stored on a stealth aircraft basically destroys the stealth since there is no way to avoid radar traps with junk hanging down, expecially on the wings. They did increase the size of the weapons bay, but that came at a massive increase in weight, and there are a lot of weapons that will not fit.
F-35本應(yīng)取代所有機型,但有趣的是其設(shè)計嚴重偏向隱身。這意味著為了提升隱身性能犧牲了飛機其他方面的性能,成本權(quán)衡也增加了包括維護在內(nèi)的總成本。在隱身戰(zhàn)機外掛任何東西基本上就破壞了隱身性,因為機翼下懸掛的雜物無法避免雷達探測。他們確實增大了武器艙尺寸,但這導(dǎo)致重量大幅增加,而且很多武器仍然無法內(nèi)置攜帶。

Weapons that generally won't fit in the F-35's internal weapons bay include large, bulky missiles like the Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile-Extended Range (JASSM-ER), which due to their size, would compromise the aircraft's stealth profile if carried internally; some variants of the Joint Strike Missile (JSM) may also not fit depending on the F-35 model, particularly the F-35B with smaller internal bays; and very large bombs that exceed the bay's dimensions.
通常無法裝入F-35內(nèi)置武器艙的武器包括:大型笨重的導(dǎo)彈如聯(lián)合空對地防區(qū)外導(dǎo)彈-增程型(JASSM-ER),由于其尺寸,即使內(nèi)置攜帶也會影響飛機隱身性能;某些型號的聯(lián)合打擊導(dǎo)彈(JSM)根據(jù)F-35型號也可能無法裝入,特別是內(nèi)置彈艙較小的F-35B型;以及超過彈艙尺寸的超大型炸彈。

So to fly many missions either it will not be able to carry the payloads of existing aircaft carry and maintain steath, or may not even be able to be steath at all because the weapons will not fit internally. This will be particularly a problem with many sensor or electronic warfare packages since they have to be carried externally to work. And when it is effectively not stealth, it is probably not going to be as effective as existing aircrafft given the design tradeoffs to maximize stealth had to compromise other attributes. Effectively the F35 was a rediculous idea. It optimized for a very few missions, and all others it will almost certainly operate at a disadvantage.
因此執(zhí)行許多任務(wù)時,要么無法攜帶現(xiàn)有戰(zhàn)機的有效載荷同時保持隱身,要么因為武器無法內(nèi)置而完全無法隱身。這對許多傳感器或電子戰(zhàn)套件尤其成問題,因為它們必須外掛才能工作。當(dāng)它實際上不具備隱身性時,考慮到為最大化隱身而犧牲其他性能的設(shè)計權(quán)衡,它可能還不如現(xiàn)有戰(zhàn)機有效。實際上F35是個荒謬的想法。它只為極少數(shù)任務(wù)優(yōu)化,在其他幾乎所有任務(wù)中幾乎都處于劣勢。

I do not think that the J-20 has evern been seen with external stores. It appears to be more like the F-117 (never see that with external stores either) than the F-35 in that it is designed for the same sort of mission, which is a penetration attack aircraft. In the case of the Chinese it is probably intended to penetrate American air defence screens and then attack obxts like support aircraft (AWACS, tankers and transports) or support ships. Maybe even attack combat ships. It seems unlikely it is intended for anti-air. Use it to destroy American logistics, and without supplies, the US basically has serious capaability degredation. For a stealh aircraft this makes a lot more sense than trying to make a multi-mission aircraft. For that the F-35 seems to be a dismal failure just because it was a idiot decision to try to build a multimission aircaft that is optimized for steatlh. Much better to optimize for stealth in a purpose built aircraft like the F-117. Then have sensors integrated that are needed for the mission and the internal stores only has to be big enough to accomodate specific weapons needed for the specific mission and not oversized so that it can fit a lot of different weapons.
我認為從未見過殲-20外掛武器。它看起來更像是F-117(也從不見外掛武器)而非F-35,因為它是為同類任務(wù)設(shè)計的,即穿透攻擊機。對中國而言,它可能是用來穿透美國防空網(wǎng),然后攻擊支援飛機(預(yù)警機、加油機和運輸機)或支援艦船。甚至可能攻擊作戰(zhàn)艦艇。它似乎不太可能是用于防空。用它摧毀美國后勤,沒有補給,美軍基本上就會嚴重喪失作戰(zhàn)能力。對隱身戰(zhàn)機來說,這比試圖造多用途戰(zhàn)機合理得多。在這方面F-35似乎是慘敗,只因試圖造一款隱身優(yōu)化的多用途戰(zhàn)機是個愚蠢決定。像F-117這樣專門設(shè)計的飛機優(yōu)化隱身性能要好得多。然后集成任務(wù)所需的傳感器,內(nèi)置彈艙只需足夠容納特定任務(wù)所需的特定武器,而不必過大以適配多種不同武器。


Dominik Schachtsiek
Its bigger, faster, has a longer range, but it is also dumber, doesn't have sufficient stealth.
I believe, that the J-20 doesn't offer the force-multiplier, which would give a real 5th generation jet the edge over a 4th generation fighter jet.
它更大、更快、航程更長,但也更笨拙,隱身性能不足。
我認為殲-20不具備真正五代機相對于四代機的力量倍增優(yōu)勢。


Kurt Black
You Americans just deceive those allies who bought your planes, don't deceive yourself.
Yes, the F35 does not pursue the ultimate flight speed, nor the ultimate performance, but all-around.
The result became a four-dimensional image.
The maximum flight speed of the F35 is only Mach 1.6.
OK.
The new J35 supersonic cruise has Mach 2.3.
And the F35 is now difficult to continue production because China has restricted the export of key raw materials.
Is the F35 really considered a fifth-generation aircraft? It's not even as good as the F22 from over forty years ago.
The F22, a fifth-generation aircraft, is a fifth-generation old aircraft with a maximum speed of Mach 2.25, a normal supersonic cruise of less than Mach 2, a maximum range of only more than 2,000 kilometers, and a maximum combat radius of 800.
The J20's normal supersonic cruising speed exceeds Mach 2.5, and its maximum speed is Mach 2.8. Now there is also a two-seater J20S.
Oh, I forgot.
Now the United States cannot produce F22.
Because the production line is gone.
你們美國人只是欺騙那些買了你們飛機的盟友,別騙自己了。
是的,F35不追求極限飛行速度,也不追求極限性能,而是追求全面。
結(jié)果變成了四不像。
F35的最大飛行速度只有1.6馬赫。
好吧。
新型J35的超音速巡航有2.3馬赫。
而且F35現(xiàn)在難以繼續(xù)生產(chǎn),因為中國限制了關(guān)鍵原材料的出口。
F35真的能算五代機嗎?它甚至比不上四十多年前的F22。
F22作為五代機,是一款老舊的五代機,最大速度2.25馬赫,常規(guī)超音速巡航不到2馬赫,最大航程僅2000多公里,最大作戰(zhàn)半徑800公里。
殲20常規(guī)超音速巡航超過2.5馬赫,最大速度2.8馬赫。現(xiàn)在還有雙座型的殲20S。
哦,我忘了。
現(xiàn)在美國造不了F22了。
因為生產(chǎn)線沒了。


Phantom Chuck
that's something until shots are fired is unlikely to be resolved beyond obfuscation by jingoistic presumption and unsourced hearsay.
It seems likely the practical material differences in stealth, maneuverability and sensor capabilities are much less than jingoists on either side can't stand but to believe. The actual outcome in a contest will be determined by:
Combat circumstances
Pilot training
efficiency of ground crew in sustaining number of operational planes and sortie rate
efficacy of ordnance
efficiency of collaboration between different platforms
在真正開火前,這個問題不太可能超越沙文主義假設(shè)和無來源傳聞的混淆而得到解決。
雙方沙文主義者不愿相信的是,隱身性、機動性和傳感器能力的實際物質(zhì)差異可能遠小于他們的想象。實戰(zhàn)結(jié)果將取決于:
戰(zhàn)斗環(huán)境
飛行員訓(xùn)練
地勤人員維持可用飛機數(shù)量和出動率的效率
武器效能
不同平臺間的協(xié)作效率


Dominik Schachtsiek
Obviously it is difficult to say - however there are some clues:
the shape and size of the J-20 seems to prospect an interceptor. This seems quite unusual (the last interceptors were built several decades ago - planes like the F-4 or Mig-25/31). This also means, that weapons load could be superior to the one of F-35 or F-22...
The fact, that China has literally no experience on stealth (as well as copy-pasting American designs) make it quite obvious, that stealth will be rudimentary at best.
Avionics: the F-22 and F-35 are best in class when it comes to avionics. The Chinese aren't that great - there are a lot of clues, that they didn't even come close to aging Russian avionics - that could change in half a decade or so - but at this point, avionics are pretty bleak.
Engines: The J-20 uses old Mig-29 derived engines. They are very "unstealthy" they are smoking and aren't really efficient. China seems not to be close to produce their own high performance cutting edge engines - hence top line performance also goes to the American jets, which are top of the class with their engines.
Overall the F-35 and F-22 could see the J-20 when the J-20 sees nothing but blue skies, the American jets can track and shoot down a J-20, when the J-20 doesn't even realizes that there is a real hazard (get the picture: a lightning strike out of the blue or getting attacked by a raptor...).
顯然很難下定論 - 但有一些線索:
殲-20的外形尺寸似乎預(yù)示它是截擊機。這很不尋常(上次建造截擊機是幾十年前 - 如F-4或米格-25/31)。這也意味著其武器載荷可能優(yōu)于F-35或F-22...
中國實際上沒有隱身技術(shù)經(jīng)驗(以及抄襲美國設(shè)計)的事實很明顯表明,其隱身性能最多只是初級水平。
航電:F-22和F-35的航電是同類最佳。中國的并不出色 - 有很多跡象表明他們甚至比不上老舊的俄羅斯航電 - 這可能在未來五年左右改變 - 但目前航電相當(dāng)黯淡。
發(fā)動機:殲-20使用源自老式米格-29的發(fā)動機。它們非常"不隱身",冒煙且效率不高。中國似乎還遠不能自產(chǎn)高性能尖端發(fā)動機 - 因此頂尖性能也屬于美國戰(zhàn)機,它們的發(fā)動機是同類最優(yōu)。
總體而言,F-35和F-22能在殲-20只看到藍天時就發(fā)現(xiàn)它,美制戰(zhàn)機可以追蹤并擊落殲-20,而殲-20甚至意識不到存在真正威脅(想象一下:晴天霹靂或被猛禽襲擊...)。


Abhishek
As far as I know you cant compare these aircrafts. But we rarely know much for sure besides predictions on basis of some random videos and recent flights at air show in china by 2 j20s. But it was for a meagre time period. About f22 and f35 both are one the most superior fighter jets available in present day scenario. But the production of F22 is already stopped. F35 despite being promising and best in league has turned out to be too costly. It has also been marred by design flaws which changed quite a times. Despite all this , it is best or one the best inits category.
One more reason we cannot logically compare is there has been no realtime combat between these aircrafts . so no data to backup
But if we go by theory , despite j20s exponential growth in technology it would not be good to say its better than f35.
據(jù)我所知,你們無法比較這些戰(zhàn)機。但我們除了根據(jù)一些隨機視頻和最近中國航展上兩架殲20的短暫飛行表演進行預(yù)測外,幾乎無法確定什么。關(guān)于f22和f35,它們都是當(dāng)今最優(yōu)秀的戰(zhàn)斗機之一。但F22的生產(chǎn)已經(jīng)停止。F35盡管前景看好且是同級別最佳,但結(jié)果證明成本太高。它還受到多次變更的設(shè)計缺陷影響。盡管如此,它仍是同類最佳或最佳之一。
另一個無法邏輯比較的原因是沒有這些戰(zhàn)機之間的實時戰(zhàn)斗。所以沒有數(shù)據(jù)支持
但如果從理論上講,盡管殲20技術(shù)呈指數(shù)級增長,但說它比f35更好并不妥當(dāng)。